Talk:Boro people
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Notable Bodo People
[edit]Some non-bodos who doesn't know Bodo history continuously targeting this category saying Bodo surname doesn't mean Bodo. Which is stupid argument seeing the present scenario. Bodos never take anyone's surname now, though they may have taken before. Also, Bodos' surname are never taken by other communities. Boro people aren't heterogeneous group. Nehemiahnarzary23 (talk) 01:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- I've notified/warned you about not adding unsourced entries in the list of notable Boros twice before in your talk page. Wikipedia doesn't go as per your personal whims and wishes. Go through WP:V. Not writing somebody's name is not targetting a community. Be WP:NEUTRAL here. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Fylindfotberserk: what could be the criterion for adding names here? Should we go by general rules on caste? Also, it is uncertain that last names are enough. For example, Kenny Basumatary's middle name seems to be Deori (Deori people), and it is likely he has Deori heritage too. So is he Deori or Boro? He makes Assamese movies. So he is Assamese as well? Bishnu Rabha is another problematic issue. Identifying people sometimes by their names (Kenny) or biological parents (Bishnu Rabha) is fraught with issues. So what kind of criterion should we use? Chaipau (talk) 10:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Chaipau: Surnames are not enough. That would be WP:SYNTH. We should go by the general rule of WP:V, sourcing them with an RS. Caste will not apply since it is a community, otherwise self-identification will come into play for the living individuals. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Fylindfotberserk: what could be the criterion for adding names here? Should we go by general rules on caste? Also, it is uncertain that last names are enough. For example, Kenny Basumatary's middle name seems to be Deori (Deori people), and it is likely he has Deori heritage too. So is he Deori or Boro? He makes Assamese movies. So he is Assamese as well? Bishnu Rabha is another problematic issue. Identifying people sometimes by their names (Kenny) or biological parents (Bishnu Rabha) is fraught with issues. So what kind of criterion should we use? Chaipau (talk) 10:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
History
[edit]@Northeast heritage: place your objections here. You do not need to place ARBIPA alerts on my page, I am aware of it[1]. Chaipau (talk) 03:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Since nobody knows when Boros started calling themselves Boro and Author didn't write anything about origin of self-designation Boro identity, "Boro identity formation" section name is simply wrong. If you want to write about Boro identity formation, You should first collect good papers on this topic, I am damn sure many Assamese scholars don't know the fact that before Hodgson, Francis-Buchanan Hamilton wrote about Boros. In fact, Hamilton collected 1500 wrods of Boro language. There is enough evidence, the history of a marginalized community is totally suppressed under the burden of interests and preferences of a dominant community. Donno know how to convince experienced editors like you so i'm done. Northeast heritage (talk) 04:50, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage: The position which you echo here is pretty close to what is generally called primordialism. This is a common viewpoint taken by members of ethnic groups, but not really the theoretical framework of choice among mainstream historians and anthropologists. Ethnic groups are innately fluid, and labels employed to "classify" them even more so. If you have good sources which take the primordialist perspective on Boro history, we may well cite them here as well for balance, but considering due weight. –Austronesier (talk) 09:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Sorry, I don't have any good source. We still don't know when it started but surely it didn't start in British era. Boro community incorporated Brahma hindu religion in 20th century. It shows fludity of Boro culture and incorporation of new identity Brahma. After arrival of Europeans, Boro (anglicized as Bodo) was extended to all tribes having linguistic relationship with Boro because they assumed Boros to be most dominant community in past which we can call dissemination of Boro identity but we still don't know when it formed. Boro means Man so i believe it existed much before the separation of Borok (Tripuri) , Dimasa ruler (Bodosa). Most tribals have similar endonym like Garos call themselves Mande (means Man). Northeast heritage (talk) 10:30, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- There is no problem in content of the section but name of the section is not balanced because Historians, Anthropologist, Linguists never claimed Boro identity formed in 19th-20th century. Northeast heritage (talk) 10:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- The Boro identity formation lasted till Upendranath Brahma and continues today in some form. As pointed out, ethnic groups are innately fluid. Kalicharan Brahma's activity is just the first evidence of a positive identity movement from within the community. If there are earlier evidence, please present evidence/RS. Chaipau (talk) 10:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Any claim without source and out of context is meaningless. I didn't write nonsense to present RS. You need to provide RS for Boro identity formation which you don't have. It must be clear that Bodo identity formation started with Hodgson for Boro-Garo linguistic group. Northeast heritage (talk) 11:00, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I have provided RS. If you have RS for earlier Boro identity formation, please do so. Chaipau (talk) 11:04, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- She didn't discuss about Boro identity formation. If you misinterpret and keep on insisting same thing, There is no meaning of discussion. Only third person would be able to say whose interpretation is correct. So I am done. Northeast heritage (talk) 11:11, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- You can name the section as "A new Boro/Bodo identity formation" as i did but your reverted. Northeast heritage (talk) 11:14, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I have added a citation which places Boro identity formation in the colonial period. I shall not entertain these tantrums from you henceforth. Please provide RS for your arguments. Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- There is no content dispute. So I don't need any RS. Main problem is your interpretation. Your just mix up everything. Brahma, a new Boro identity but a religious identity of some Boros which you claimed the Boro identity earlier.
- You are just dumping EPW political articles for History section. Perhaps I should find some good papers on Northeastern tribes based on their folklores and culture documented by European scholars.
There was no culture of deceitful in tribal communities and their folklores turn out historically accurate. - If "From the colonial period, the Bodos have been defining themselves as a community in opposition to other communities" means "Boro identity formation began in the colonial period", I will never come back here.
- If my IQ level isn't so low, "From the colonial period, the Bodos have been defining themselves as a community in opposition to other communities" means "Bodos have been distancing themselves from other communities".
- I am leaving for few months. Northeast heritage (talk) 14:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. We will reconnect in a few months. Chaipau (talk) 14:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage: I am somewhat disturbed to see you flip-flopping between very sensible/thoughtful comments and pretty naive remarks ("There was no culture of deceitful in tribal communities and their folklores turn out historically accurate" – that's super-naive) which latter remotely remind me of statements by User:Sairg and by his countless "reincarnations". Nothing implied here; I am aware that a strong literalist approach towards tribal traditions (as they were recorded by Raj-era scholars) is not a rare thing among NE Indian editors I have encountered here. –Austronesier (talk) 16:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: I understand that my emotive comments might have high degree of commonality with comments from other editors. Almost all editors have read the same things and I am aware of Sairg but I am more of a reader than an editor. I invested my time
herein this discussion because I know the issue of forceful assimilation and marginalization of tribal communities. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:58, 3 August 2022 (UTC)- Striked thee naive comment. Now I realised it has negative implications. Northeast heritage (talk) 18:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Then you are in the wrong place. Wikipedia cannot right historical wrongs. Neither can it forcefully assimilate nor marginalize peoples.
- There is one way it can help you, though. Start a Boro language Wikipedia. Here is the link to get started. Chaipau (talk) 18:08, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, I should have said "to this discussion" instead of "here" to make things clearer. Wikipedia cannot right historical wrongs but POV-pusher editors wrong the rights. Since you pinged me, I commented here. Sigh, totally exhausted. Northeast heritage (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I am still trying to learn WP:P&G. I will contribute in future when i'll have free time. Northeast heritage (talk) 18:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- It is 12:18am Indian time. Sorry for any mistakes in my writings, I am tired. Northeast heritage (talk) 18:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Linguists have reconstructed the origin of "Boro" from "Bara-fisa" and equated the "Bara-fisa" to "Brog-bu-tsa" meaning "the descendants of steppes", source : Mosahary, R N (1983). "The Boros: Their Origin, Migration and Settlement in Assam" , given in the Bibligraphy.
- I don't know academic standard of writing such things but it appears to me that this reconstruction could be part of "Primordialism". And the current version of so-called "Boro identity formation" section is more of "Socio-religious/political transformation" than "Boro identity formation". Interestingly Christianity has more contribution to entire community whereas Brahma religion contributed to small section of Boros in Kokrajhar district but Author didn't call Christian Boro as a new Boro identity. Historically, Hindus imposed Mech or Mleccha and Kachari names demeaningly on Boro people. Some local scholars still love to use these names instead of Boro. Jae-Eun-Shin in her papers about Kamarup such as "Region formed and Imagined", has written how nationalist Indo-Aryan scholars portray an image of superior Indo-Aryan and inferior Mongoloid. Interestingly most scholars identifies ruling dynasties of Kamarupa with Boro or "Kachari" but yeah local scholars can always make unsubstantiated claims/controversies to burry the history of some ethnic groups and finally burry their existence.
- There are great WP editors who are academic, linguist, computer scientist etc in real life so i trust WP and it helped me to enhance my knowledge. I'll be reading great articles written by such editors and I decided to leave editing. Thank you. Northeast heritage (talk) 05:12, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: I understand that my emotive comments might have high degree of commonality with comments from other editors. Almost all editors have read the same things and I am aware of Sairg but I am more of a reader than an editor. I invested my time
- @Northeast heritage: I am somewhat disturbed to see you flip-flopping between very sensible/thoughtful comments and pretty naive remarks ("There was no culture of deceitful in tribal communities and their folklores turn out historically accurate" – that's super-naive) which latter remotely remind me of statements by User:Sairg and by his countless "reincarnations". Nothing implied here; I am aware that a strong literalist approach towards tribal traditions (as they were recorded by Raj-era scholars) is not a rare thing among NE Indian editors I have encountered here. –Austronesier (talk) 16:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. We will reconnect in a few months. Chaipau (talk) 14:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I have added a citation which places Boro identity formation in the colonial period. I shall not entertain these tantrums from you henceforth. Please provide RS for your arguments. Chaipau (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I have provided RS. If you have RS for earlier Boro identity formation, please do so. Chaipau (talk) 11:04, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Any claim without source and out of context is meaningless. I didn't write nonsense to present RS. You need to provide RS for Boro identity formation which you don't have. It must be clear that Bodo identity formation started with Hodgson for Boro-Garo linguistic group. Northeast heritage (talk) 11:00, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- The Boro identity formation lasted till Upendranath Brahma and continues today in some form. As pointed out, ethnic groups are innately fluid. Kalicharan Brahma's activity is just the first evidence of a positive identity movement from within the community. If there are earlier evidence, please present evidence/RS. Chaipau (talk) 10:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Austronesier, I notice now that the problem of primordialism is worse than what it looked like about a year ago. It seems that the Boros were first identified by the colonial ethnographers and administrators. I shall try my best to identify it here and steering clear of it (as well as in other articles) and shall require your help in keeping a check (oh no, once again! :-)). Chaipau (talk) 18:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage: The position which you echo here is pretty close to what is generally called primordialism. This is a common viewpoint taken by members of ethnic groups, but not really the theoretical framework of choice among mainstream historians and anthropologists. Ethnic groups are innately fluid, and labels employed to "classify" them even more so. If you have good sources which take the primordialist perspective on Boro history, we may well cite them here as well for balance, but considering due weight. –Austronesier (talk) 09:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I thought somebody will NPOVize the misinterpretation but nobody did, so i updated the misinterpretation to what Author said. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:26, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage: I have adjusted the text and removed the primordialism, as Austronesier had pointed out, that you introduced. Please do not do this again. Chaipau (talk) 02:07, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Chaipau: Where did I introduce Primordialism? Author didn't say such things which you interpreated. Pathak didn't even use the word "Identity". Please avoid WP:SYNTHESIS. Northeast heritage (talk) 02:34, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- There are 25 mentions of the word "identity" in the article by Pathak, and they are all attributed to the colonial period. Chaipau (talk) 03:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Not about the random use but about the use in quoted text given in the citation. Northeast heritage (talk) 03:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- This is the sentence: "
From the colonial period, the Bodos have been defining themselves as a community in opposition to other communities.
" Where is the synthesis? Most authors have identified the early 20th century as when the process began, as Pathak has done here. But if you want to refer to the identity consolidation in the later half of the 20th century in the Bodo Movement conquest, that is a different matter. Chaipau (talk) 04:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)- See there is difference between the identity and its definition. People can keep on redefining their identities like Rajbanshi people. I am very confused why these Boro leaders like Kalicharan Brahma and Jadunath Khakhlary are given too much importance. These leaders can say anything. They aren't Academics. To my knowledge, not a single scholar ever claimed "Boro Identity formation" began in colonial period. This self-designation is analogous to self-designation "Arya". Also there is difference between Identity and Ethnicity/Community, Just take an example of Ahom, Ahom were original Assamese but today most people of Assam call themselves caste-Hindu Assamese. But Boro is a scheduled tribe so it's not flexible like Assamese, here non-Boros don't join the community. Pathak's comment is about origin of difference between Boro and caste-Hindu Assamese. So your interpretation is simply wrong. No doubt, Based on Raj scholarship, Chauvinist Boro leaders tried to merge other tribes into Bodo race which is an outdated concept. I will really appreciate if you can provide a source where scholars claim the identity formation process began in colonial period but Pathak's comment is not saying what you interpret. Northeast heritage (talk) 05:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Pathak's sentence says precisely that. The Boro community began to define itself in the colonial times (authors mention early 20th century). It is also widely known that the "tribal" category was created by the British, which the Boro people used to distinguish itself (Simon Commission, 1923). Scheduled tribe is a constituted category---so it is post-Indian Independence (1947) phenomenon. It has no anthropological value. The same ethnic group may enjoy benefits in one region but not in others. And the government of the day can admit groups into ST category according political needs.
- Since you are arguing that Boro identity formation did not begin in the Colonial times the onus is on you to provide references. Chaipau (talk) 12:54, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- See there is difference between the identity and its definition. People can keep on redefining their identities like Rajbanshi people. I am very confused why these Boro leaders like Kalicharan Brahma and Jadunath Khakhlary are given too much importance. These leaders can say anything. They aren't Academics. To my knowledge, not a single scholar ever claimed "Boro Identity formation" began in colonial period. This self-designation is analogous to self-designation "Arya". Also there is difference between Identity and Ethnicity/Community, Just take an example of Ahom, Ahom were original Assamese but today most people of Assam call themselves caste-Hindu Assamese. But Boro is a scheduled tribe so it's not flexible like Assamese, here non-Boros don't join the community. Pathak's comment is about origin of difference between Boro and caste-Hindu Assamese. So your interpretation is simply wrong. No doubt, Based on Raj scholarship, Chauvinist Boro leaders tried to merge other tribes into Bodo race which is an outdated concept. I will really appreciate if you can provide a source where scholars claim the identity formation process began in colonial period but Pathak's comment is not saying what you interpret. Northeast heritage (talk) 05:39, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- This is the sentence: "
- Not about the random use but about the use in quoted text given in the citation. Northeast heritage (talk) 03:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- There are 25 mentions of the word "identity" in the article by Pathak, and they are all attributed to the colonial period. Chaipau (talk) 03:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Chaipau: Where did I introduce Primordialism? Author didn't say such things which you interpreated. Pathak didn't even use the word "Identity". Please avoid WP:SYNTHESIS. Northeast heritage (talk) 02:34, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage: I have adjusted the text and removed the primordialism, as Austronesier had pointed out, that you introduced. Please do not do this again. Chaipau (talk) 02:07, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- No, Pathak's sentence doesn't say what you interpret. Let us wait for third opinion. I requested an Rfc regarding this issue. Northeast heritage (talk) 13:06, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- See, What Pathak said doesn't reflect in your interpretation. "A community in opposition to other communities" is the new definition according to her. This is a trivial thing. I don't understand why it is so hard to be understood. Fact is nobody knows when Boros started calling themselves Boro. Northeast heritage (talk) 13:20, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Lead
[edit]@Chaipau: This sentence - They are concentrated mainly in the Bodoland Territorial Region of Assam, though Boros inhabit all other districts of Assam and Meghalaya.
- requires copyedit IMO. Part of it is redundant, "though Boros inhabit all other districts of Assam", since the lead sentence already says "largest ethnolinguistic group in the Assam state". Second, the "and Meghalaya" part implies that Boros are found in all districts of Meghalaya at significant percentages, which likely is not the case. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Fylindfotberserk: thanks for looking into this. I agree. There are currently too many issues with the entire lead section. I think this should be corrected properly after a demographic analysis is made on all districts. Since the Boro people are a scheduled tribe, they are identified via the census. Chaipau (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Rfc about "Identity formation" in History section
[edit]We are having some issues with interpretations of what the Authors said and what an editor interprete. I assumed good faith in the editor since she/he is a senior editor but not a single source discusses "Boro Identity Formation". Authors discuss socio-religious and political transformation or aspirations of the community. Based on "From the colonial period, the Bodos have been defining themselves as a community in opposition to other communities. The Bodo-educated elites and intelligentsia have been articulating their divergence from the Assamese caste Hindu society and highlighting issues like land alienation and social and economic backwardness."
, The editor interpreted the "Boro Identity Formation" began in the colonial period. To my understanding, Neither her/his interpretation is correct nor the section name is WP:DUE. Should there be some changes? I will appreciate your comments. Northeast heritage (talk) 02:21, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Pinging the concerned editor @Chaipau: Northeast heritage (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage I'm sure whomever you're talking about would appreciate a ping. (Summoned by bot) I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 16:57, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: A little background—this issue has already been discussed in the history section above. In that discussion Austronesier has pointed out] that the OP's approach is an example of primordialism. (I am hereby pinging Austronesier, which OP has not done). So it is not just I who do not agree with OP but there are others too.
- It does not look to me that OP quite understands what primordialism is. Even after the link was provided to them, OP makes a statement that is classical primordialism' here in which OP claims that "
Historians, Anthropologist, Linguists never claimed Boro identity formed in 19th-20th century.
". This is a strange claim since the quoted statement says precisely that. Also, the very first two lines from the abstract of the article has this to say: "The term "Plains Tribal" was first used by the colonial rulers in Assam to lump together a diverse set of people defined in semi-geographical and semi-sociological terms. It was taken up and crafted into an identity in the competitive politics of late colonial Assam by representatives of tribal groups who successfully welded this diverse set into a unified political and social category.
". In other words, the identity of the Boro's were being crafted on the notion of "plain tribe", a colonial construct. - The section heading Boro identity formation uses a standard academic phrase identity formation. If we want to use the exact words used by the author, then the subject heading should be Crafting the Boro identity, which I am sure the OP would like less.
- Chaipau (talk) 18:57, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't have disagreement with Austronesier who has pointed out about my approach. So I don't know if I should ping @Austronesier or not. Pardon my noviceness. Again I read the discussion history section above but I couldn't find whether Austronesier disagreed with me or Austronesier agreed with your interpretation. To my knowledge, It doesn't matter whatever approach I take because Wikipedia simply reports WP:DUE scholarship.
- Now let us look into the sources used
- 1)Book of Sharma, Jayeeta (2011). Empire's Garden: Assam and the Making of India. Duke University
- 2)Political article of Pathak, Suryasikha (2010). "Tribal Politics in the Assam: 1933-1947". Economic and Political Weekly
- Sharma discusses about different claims made by Boro leaders and their socio-political aspirations. Yeah She calls "Brahma", a new Bodo identity. Similarly Pathak discusses about Tribal politics and She states that the Bodos have been defining themselves as a community in opposition to other communities since colonial era.
- Some well-known facts
- 1) Boro is the endonym reported by numerous scholars in their field work since the time of Francis Buchanan-Hamilton and B.H. Hodgson
- 2) Boros were known as Kachari and Mech which are exonyms. Before Linguistic Survey of India 1905, They were listed as Kacharis, Mech and Minor Bodo, but After LSI became influencial Boros abandoned Kachari and Mech name and got listed as Boro or Bara.
- 3) Some Boros follow Brahma religion and use Brahma surname which Sharma called a new Bodo identity.
- 3) Boros have been defining themselves as a community in opposition to other communities since colonial era which is reported by Pathak.
- 4) Boro leaders use tribal identity for political purpose and this identity is nothing but colonial construct, earlier "Tribal" identity was discriminatory so many tribes like Ahom, Chutia, Moran, Rajbasnhi rejected it but now this identity is politically privileged so different tribes are demaning the "Tribal" status.
- So, How Chaipu concludes that Boro identity formation began in colonial era is beyond my understanding and Boro Identity formation will be a subtopic within Identity formation. Anyway, My RfC is more of a simple question whether Chaipau's interpretation correct or not. Northeast heritage (talk) 03:58, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion smacks of primordialism. Be that as it may, Wikipedia is not the place for WP:OR and the direction which Northeast heritage is trying to move this discussion is not appropriate.
- Is standard scholarship addressing Boro identity formation? Yes. Boro identity formation has been mentioned specifically by Pathak above, as also by Smitana Saikia in the PhD thesis (2017) from King's College, London. The title of the 5th chapter is
Identity formation and autonomy in the Assam plains in the early 20th century: The Bodos
". The first sentence is "This chapter brings into sharper focus the processes of identity formation of the Bodo community from the early decades of the twentieth century till independence.
". Here again we encounter the start of the Boro identity formation in the late colonial times. The author specifically states that the identity formation was triggered by local elites to find space in the colonial state: "Parallel to the efforts of the colonial state to define and govern Assam, there were efforts by these communities to identify and locate themselves in the social and political milieu of the colonial state. Developments in colonial Assam valley were thus linked and products of political struggles among local elites.
" (p160) - The title of the section "Boro identity formation" is not based on any "interpretation" as OP has suggested, but it is an active area of research and curiosity. Authors have attributed the origin to the activity of local elites, as Saikia has mentioned above and which Sharma also states in unambiguous terms in [2] and [3]. This is, in fact, not a special feature of the Boro identity formation, but a rather universal phenomenon. Chaipau (talk) 04:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Now you have added a PhD thesis to discussion. But our discussion belongs prior to this event. I don't understand why it is so hard to understand such simple things. Scholars have shown that the Identity formation is continuous process e.g. Some scholars discuss Boro Identity formation in 19th century and Some scholars discuss Boro Identity formation in 20th century and Some scholars may have discussed Boro Identity formation in 21st century. This doesn't mean Boro Identity formation began in 19th century. There is huge difference between "Boro Identity formation began in colonial period" and "Boro Identity formation in colonial period". I only object "Boro Identity formation began in colonial period" which is unsourced and misinterpretation of the quoted text in citation. Northeast heritage (talk) 05:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- I have shown above that there is no interpretation involved. Authors, including Saikia, Pathak, and Sharma (and many others not named here) have explicitly or by a different phrasal expressions, talked about Boro identity formation. What we have seen from you so far are mentions of names (Boro, Bara, Bodo, Mech). None of these names denote the same people---instead they refer to different peoples and groupings as used by different sources in different times in the past and in the present.
- I shall ignore your comments on why others find "it so hard to understand simple things" for now. Chaipau (talk) 06:32, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Scholars have already discussed about spelling variants. Scholars have also discussed about exonyms. These aren't issues at all. To my understanding, Saikia talks about Bodo Identity formation (latest addition) in 19th or 20th century, Pathak talks about Tribal Identity formation and Sarma talks about Religious/Brahma Identity formation. All these are separate subtopics within Identity formation. Is there any evidence about Boro Identity formation beginning in colonial era? Also please try to use authoritative sources on Identity formation because Political articles don't give indepth analysis. Northeast heritage (talk) 06:54, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Your interpretation-
Boro Identity formation began in colonial period
, based on"From the colonial period, the Bodos have been defining themselves as a community in opposition to other communities. The Bodo-educated elites and intelligentsia have been articulating their divergence from the Assamese caste Hindu society and highlighting issues like land alienation and social and economic backwardness."
. I object this interpretation while waiting for third opinion. Northeast heritage (talk) 07:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)- What is the basis of your objection? Please provide WP:RS to back your objection. The text you are objecting to are based on cited WP:RS. Chaipau (talk) 13:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC) (edited) 14:10, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- To my understanding, Identity formation is continuous process and All these scholars you referred discuss colonial phase of Bodo identity formation. So It's about Boro identity formation in colonial period. But Boro idenity formation began in colonial period means Genesis of Boro identity in colonial period so I object to the clause- "Boro identity formation began in colonial period". Beginning of Phase isn't same as genesis. Northeast heritage (talk) 15:47, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please note that your "understanding" in not WP:RS. If you are unable to provide any evidence beyond your understanding then we cannot proceed with a fruitful discussion. Chaipau (talk) 16:10, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Per WP:CONSENSUS, I can raise my objection. I am proposing
"Boros identity formation in the colonial period began when the Boro elite and intelligentsia began differentiating themselves from the Assamese caste-Hindu society"
instead of"Boros identity formation began in the colonial period, when the Boro elite and intelligentsia began differentiating themselves from the Assamese caste-Hindu society"
. If it is acceptable, I will have no more objection to this issue. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)- Under WP:CONSENSUS,
An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted
. Your dispute is not legitimate, given you have not provided any source, even after repeated requests. Chaipau (talk) 16:33, 31 August 2022 (UTC)- I am disputing your interpretation, obviously using the same quoted text and same source. This is not an issue. Also I edited as per source but later you restored same objected clause. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, I added my proposed text. If my edit will not be reverted, This RfC can be closed, otherwise we have to wait. Northeast heritage (talk) 17:07, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- I am disputing your interpretation, obviously using the same quoted text and same source. This is not an issue. Also I edited as per source but later you restored same objected clause. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Under WP:CONSENSUS,
- And Understanding is the most important thing in Wikipedia because we can't copy paste actual texts. We have to understand clearly then write in own words. So my concerns are legitimate. As a result, you have added new source to back your claims, but a concern is still unresolved. Northeast heritage (talk) 16:43, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- You have not only not provided any source for your understanding, but now you are quoting non-existent Wikipedia policy ("Understanding is the most important thing in Wikipedia"). If Identity formation began in the pre-colonial period, please provide a source.
- Your problem here is that the Boro identity was based on Hodgson's definition of the "Bodo", which all writers have commented on. And the notion of "plain tribes" which also was a colonial construct. This is precisely why you are unable to provide a source. Jadav Khakhlari rightly anticipated the problem, but he is a footnote in Boro history. Wikipedia cannot solve the problems of Boro identity formation---it cannot do anything beyond what authors have said. It cannot present Boro national narratives in Wikivoice either, since these narratives overlap and are in conflict with other narratives, such as those of the Dimasas. It can only report on them, which is what the article is currently doing. Chaipau (talk) 18:06, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- When did I claim a non-existent policy? No doubt Understanding is most important thing in WP and It is required to give correct interpretation.
- I didn't write Boro identity formation began in pre-colonial. Neither I know when Boro identity formation began nor I have found any scholarship which discusses when Boro identity formation began. It is you who write Boro identity formation began in colonial period so the burden to provide right citation lies on you. Now you have provided a new citation without a quote, but nowhere the Author discusses when Boro identity formation began. I can't repeat same things. So I am waiting for comments from other editors. Northeast heritage (talk) 18:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- The issue related to the interpretation of Pathak's claim is already resolved. Discussion is very time-consuming. Interpretation of Saikia's claim is a different issue for some other days. So I am ending this discussion. Northeast heritage (talk) 19:12, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- I agree and request that this RfC be closed. Please note that Northeast heritage has agreed (15:12) that the issue regarding Pathak's quote has been resolved following this edit (13:55) Chaipau (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please note that Northeast heritage has since retired. Chaipau (talk) 19:33, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- I agree and request that this RfC be closed. Please note that Northeast heritage has agreed (15:12) that the issue regarding Pathak's quote has been resolved following this edit (13:55) Chaipau (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Per WP:CONSENSUS, I can raise my objection. I am proposing
- Please note that your "understanding" in not WP:RS. If you are unable to provide any evidence beyond your understanding then we cannot proceed with a fruitful discussion. Chaipau (talk) 16:10, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- To my understanding, Identity formation is continuous process and All these scholars you referred discuss colonial phase of Bodo identity formation. So It's about Boro identity formation in colonial period. But Boro idenity formation began in colonial period means Genesis of Boro identity in colonial period so I object to the clause- "Boro identity formation began in colonial period". Beginning of Phase isn't same as genesis. Northeast heritage (talk) 15:47, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- What is the basis of your objection? Please provide WP:RS to back your objection. The text you are objecting to are based on cited WP:RS. Chaipau (talk) 13:41, 31 August 2022 (UTC) (edited) 14:10, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Now you have added a PhD thesis to discussion. But our discussion belongs prior to this event. I don't understand why it is so hard to understand such simple things. Scholars have shown that the Identity formation is continuous process e.g. Some scholars discuss Boro Identity formation in 19th century and Some scholars discuss Boro Identity formation in 20th century and Some scholars may have discussed Boro Identity formation in 21st century. This doesn't mean Boro Identity formation began in 19th century. There is huge difference between "Boro Identity formation began in colonial period" and "Boro Identity formation in colonial period". I only object "Boro Identity formation began in colonial period" which is unsourced and misinterpretation of the quoted text in citation. Northeast heritage (talk) 05:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Francis-Hamilton
[edit]@Northeast heritage, I am not sure why you are inserting this: [4] and [5]. I removed it because of the following reasons.
- Daimari's thesis does not attribute his claim to any source. Specifically, his sentence
...the proper name to refer to them was Boro
is not attributed. I looked at his "Account of Assam", and I could not find the word "Boro" anywhere. - Hamilton left India in 1815 for good---about 10 years before the Treaty of Yandaboo (1826). Jaquesson writes:
His greatest accomplishment is the survey of Bengal (1807-1814), to which he added a wealth of information about Assam. After that, for one year he took charge of the Botanical Gardens in Calcutta, which he handed over to Wallich (23rd Feb. 1815), leaving India forever on the very same day. He then assumed the name Hamilton.
. He did not even enter Assam, which was off limits to him.Assam was very much a kingdom. Actually, Buchanan could not enter Assam, which was then closed to foreigners. All his information, as he himself explained, was collected from people he met in Rangpur or closer to the border. His approach came from outside.
So you are trying to insert an unreferenced claim from a PhD thesis here, about an issue where the original reporter did not even visit the place? He was reporting about people in Bengal not about Assam, first hand. His information has to be used keeping these caveats in mind, and Jaquesson does an excellent job doing so.
I rather go with Jaquesson who traces the use of the term Bodo to Hodgson.
Sorry, this quote from Daimari fails verification. Chaipau (talk) 17:29, 21 April 2023 (UTC) (edited) 17:30, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Chaipau: , See page no. 14. It's well attributed. Historical Assam didn't include undivided Goalpara where he visited and collected information about language and culture of the people of the region. Jaquesson's work is obviously not comprehensive. Northeast heritage (talk) 02:30, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Martin Montgomery had reproduced FBH's work in book. Daimari quotes the relevant claim in page no. 14 and analyses in page no. 67. I don't understand why are reverting my cited text. Jaquesson's article is mainly about discovery of Boro-Garo languages. It's not about discovery of Boro-Garo peoples. Jaquesson wasn't working on Boro Identity formation so his work obviously didn't mention many things about Boro people. Northeast heritage (talk) 02:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage, the Francis Hamilton quote fails verification for te reason above and I shall remove it again. You have not been able to verify it. Martin Montgomery is something I shall verify and let you know, and if correct, I shall place it where it belongs. Your latest addition as it stands now is very confusing. Chaipau (talk) 09:54, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage, help me find the quote in Montgomery. The volume iii is given here. Please help me locate the text Daimari quotes from Montgomery in p14
- Daimari says very specifically that "
As such, whenever Bodo is used in the body of the thesis, it is used as a colonial construct.
" (p14) Not just he, but most academics today agree (look at Sanjukta Das Gupta, cited in the article; Jaquesson etc.) So it is important to figure out how this colonial construct impacted the Boro identity formation. Daimari himself says that "However when they became colonial subjects, Boros increasingly transitioned from this fuzzy existence to a more definite and defined category. One of the factors facilitating this transition was the knowledge produced by the British administrators and anthropologists through descriptive accounts, ethnographies, ethnologies, gazetteers and subsequently the census.
" (p5) Unfortunately, modern academics do not consider this as records but "colonial constructs". Wikipedia too considers the Raj ethnographers as unreliable. And as a result, we can at best state when specific claims were made and not state the claims in WP:Wikivoice. Chaipau (talk) 11:16, 22 April 2023 (UTC)- Looks like you are unable to find the citation. Please see citation no. 64 and 65. It is clear that the source isn't "Account of Assam" but "Martin Montgomery, Histories Of Eastern India" and page no. 549 Northeast heritage (talk) 11:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- See this . Northeast heritage (talk) 11:21, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Daimari quots in page no. 14 what is given in Martin's page no. 549. Northeast heritage (talk) 11:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- See this . Northeast heritage (talk) 11:21, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Looks like you are unable to find the citation. Please see citation no. 64 and 65. It is clear that the source isn't "Account of Assam" but "Martin Montgomery, Histories Of Eastern India" and page no. 549 Northeast heritage (talk) 11:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage, the Francis Hamilton quote fails verification for te reason above and I shall remove it again. You have not been able to verify it. Martin Montgomery is something I shall verify and let you know, and if correct, I shall place it where it belongs. Your latest addition as it stands now is very confusing. Chaipau (talk) 09:54, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
@Northeast heritage, thank you for the link. It is just as I had suspected. Here is the complete paragraph:
The Kachharis form a tribe, of which a few families are settled in two eastern divisions of this district, and a great many in the lower hills of Bhotan, and in Asam. Indeed they allege, that their prince was sovereign of that country, when it was invaded by its present rulers ; and he still retains the sovereignty of a considerable extent of hilly country south from Asam, and east from Silhet (Cachar R). It is perhaps from this territory, that they derive the name usually given to them; for my informants say, that the proper name of the people is Boro. Although long separated from their prince, and scattered through dominions of more powerful sovereigns, they allege, that they still retain their loyalty, and every year contribute to give him support. Each family, wherever settled, gives from one to five rs. , which are collected by persons regularly deputed from Kachhar the number of families in this district may be about 200.
- First, this is from Montgomery, not Hamilton-Buchanan. Neither you nor Daimari have provided any reference where Hamilton-Buchanan mentions Boro/Bodo.
- It is clear Montgomery in the paragraph quoted above claims Boro as the self-designation of the entire Kachari people. The territory where the Kacharis live is said to include Rangpur, foothills of Bhutan, North Cachar hills, as well as the Cachar district. This is different from the use of Boro in Daimari's thesis, where he uses it to designate only the Boro people as defined today, and does not include the Dimasa who are present in Cachar hills and valley which Montgomery includes in his Boro.
I shall change the text and references accordingly.
Chaipau (talk) 14:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- You can't interpret/misinterpret anything. Montgomrty himself acknowledged Buchanan in "Introduction". Montgomery is the editor, not original Author. That work is about Kacharis who called themselves Boro which is further confirmed by description of religion in next page. quote1="Though Montgomery’s account is being used here as a source, he had taken as his sources the accounts written by Buchanan-Hamilton, and hence the reference to Buchanan-Hamilton in the first person", page no.=68f , quote2="Here we can safely assume that Buchanan-Hamilton indeed meant the Boros—not taking into account the stray reference to tribute paying Kacharis(Dimasas) — as is evident from the description of their religious practices, which was said to be centred around the worship of what was described as the Siju and the female deity Moynong, as these are deities specifically worshipped only by them and not by any other community" , page no.=69.
- You are free to start an RfC to remove cited text. Northeast heritage (talk) 15:41, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage, as I said earlier, we need to verify this in very specific ways. According to Daimari, Hamilton collected information about Assam from people in Bengal in 1808/1809. Even if he was in Goalpara at that time the Goalpara Duars (where the Boros historically have been) were still with Bhutan at that time (it was with Bhutan till the Duar War 1864/65), for another 50 years or so. So he could not have been in the Boro areas.
- Furthermore, we have many authors remarking on how colonial ethnographers basically were advancing colonial interests. So it is natural to look at their reports very critically.
- There is one other issue which Daimari has been very specific about---how the Boros have been using "colonial knowledge" for their own unnati (progress). This is OK to do in real life, but not in Wikipedia. You cannot apply the tools of Boro unnati in Wikipedia, since that would be WP:PROMO. Chaipau (talk) 23:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- LOL, Obviously your claims are simply wrong because Duars were not even part of Goalpara then. You're claiming that Wikipedia is place to critically review articles which is also simply wrong, we had such discussion earlier.
- I can definitely prove, Daimari is right but I must follow WP:FORUM guidelines.
- Buchanan wrote about Sijou , Mainao and collected atleast 1800 words of Boro language. No scholar will ever claim that this account isn't about Boros.
- You OWN. Northeast heritage (talk) 01:11, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage, you need to get the proper cites. Daimari does give any citation, as I have said. Chaipau (talk) 10:13, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- My first citation was enough. I cited the knowledge produced, by Daimari, based on historical account/report. You are free to do whatever you want. Northeast heritage (talk) 01:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Northeast heritage, you need to get the proper cites. Daimari does give any citation, as I have said. Chaipau (talk) 10:13, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
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